In the interview below, Dagi, distinguished scholar and professor at Queen’s University Belfast, Harvard Medical School Member of the Academy, Director of Life Sciences at London and a Honorary Doctor of Kaunas University of Technology (KTU) discusses fostering interdiciplinarity, challenges of higher education and the common ground between medicine and engineering.
“Almost every discipline has a particular, and sometimes more-or-less unique way of looking at the world and analyzing questions. However, such uniqueness risks degenerating into a form of provincialism. In English this is called a “silo” mentality, reminiscent of the huge grain storage structures that stand in splendid isolation entirely separated from other silos on the plains”, says Dagi, encouraging deep crossover of various disciplines, involving knowledge and expertise.
There are nearly 50 universities and colleges in Lithuania. In your opinion, is it an optimal quantity for our country?
This is not a simple question to answer because it depends on the social and educational functions of the universities and colleges. The answer also depends on the definitions of a university or college, and the vision for higher education in Lithuania. In some settings, a college or university degree might be required for entry to the job market at a level that a technical or advanced vocational school might provide elsewhere. Music conservatories and art institutes confer university level degrees in some locations, whereas in others they are attached to a university for that purpose.
On a purely population-based calculus, 50 universities and colleges represents a ratio of 1 institution to a 60,000 population in Lithuania. This is a very generous number and reflects an admirable commitment to higher education.
For the sake of comparison, the United States has a ratio of about 1 institution of higher learning for 130,000 in population. The US has approximately 3,000 colleges and universities providing full, four year degrees following the award of a high school diploma, which then allows the graduate to apply for entrance to graduate studies in science, engineering, arts, law, medicine, social sciences and other graduate disciplines. The four year degree is the standard university degree.
The system in the US differs from that in Europe, however. Law and medicine, for examples are graduate degrees requiring three and four years of postgraduate study in the US, while they remain undergraduate degrees in Lithuania (indeed almost universally throughout Europe).
The US also has about 1,700 two year colleges. These colleges provide technical and vocational education through a lower level associate’s degree program, as well an alternative route for students to enter a four year undergraduate program should they qualify. There are still other institutions that provide post-high school education. If all these additional programs are included, the number of degree granting institutions in the US exceeds 5,000.
At face value, 50 universities and colleges in Lithuania is higher than required, but it is unfair to make that statement categorically without a full understanding of the roles played by each.
A lot of experts talk about the consolidation of the higher education network as a necessity in Lithuania for increasing the quality of our studies and research. What is your opinion on that?
Consolidation, if done correctly and with a focused strategic vision, would allow the Lithuanian higher education system more easily to address the established international criteria for excellence in education, including standards of teaching, research, research impact and numbers of citations, industry engagement and international mix. It goes without saying, however, that the process of consolidation, and the outcome must also be responsive to the special needs of Lithuanian society.
What are the ways of consolidation: merger, closing, cartels etc.? What are the advantages and disadvantages of the process?
Many institutions, whether private or public (state-run) have stipulations in their charters which pertain to changes in control and the ways they must be implemented. Mechanisms of consolidation may be restricted for that reason. Leaving the mechanics aside, however, the two most important mechanisms are mergers and closings.
Every institution has to develop a unified vision of future goals, a strategies and implementation plans. There can only be one such set, and the leadership of the institution must have the authority to establish it. This standard of governance is best met by merger, and the selection of a single leadership team.
One of the benefits of consolidation is reduction in redundant and duplicative programs. That too requires the kind of leadership best obtained through merger. The appointment of a single leadership team also facilitates the establishment of mechanisms for accountability, which must be emphasized no less than the need for authority.
Some entities may not be able to contribute enough to warrant merger (or acquisition). Even though their faculties might be quickly assimilated into other organisations, the institution itself might not be worth maintaining. Again, with due attention to historical and social exigencies, from the perspective of the creation of effective educational institutions and organizations effectively led, it may be better to close some institution and concentrate resources on the ones most likely to make the strongest national contribution.
You are probably aware of the plans to merge Kaunas University of Technology and Lithuanian University of Health Sciences. As a physician, a researcher and an entrepreneur: what do medical sciences and technologies have in common? Why is it important for engineers and physicians to work together?
There is ample evidence to show that both in both education and in research, institutions working at the interface of multiple technologies and pursuing interdisciplinary initiatives yield higher levels of innovation, greater numbers of invention, more enduring educational value, higher levels of social engagement within a society, and, ultimately, more robust economic value. For centuries, medicine was based on anatomy, physiology and pathology. Then it moved on to wider concepts of biology and chemistry, and embraced biochemistry, molecular biology and statistics. More recently, it has become clear that the medicine will need to integrate physics, mathematics, informatics, computer sciences, robotics and engineering if it is to continue the pace of innovation which patients demand and if it is to contend with the very relevant innovations in those fields which can result in measurable benefits to patients.
This approach requires a change in educational philosophy and training. The educational philosophy in medical education will inevitably require the addition of a formal problem-solving approach in addition to the primarily fact-acquisition and fact-analysis approach currently in use. Future advances in medical imaging, drug development, medical device innovation and even medical services will require a different way of thinking.
There are only a handful of places worldwide with the capacity to integrate medicine and engineering at the level of the Kaunas Institute of Technology and the Lithuanian University of Health Sciences. Kaunas stands out exceptionally in that regard. The integration of the two institutions would create a very powerful force for education, research, collaboration with industry, and social benefit.
Why is the interdisciplinarity important in universities? Does is it correlate with success in labour market after finishing studies, relation with business etc.?
Interdisciplinarity correlates with innovation, innovative research, product development, and, once beyond entry-level positions, corporate advancement. Almost every discipline has a particular, and sometimes more-or-less unique way of looking at the world and analyzing questions. Such uniqueness risks degenerating into a form of provincialism. In English this is called a “silo” mentality, reminiscent of the huge grain storage structures that stand in splendid isolation entirely separated from other silos on the plains.
While the ability to engage in cross-disciplinary or inter-disciplinary thinking is an individual matter, the opportunity to do so seems to be a plausible goal for universities to target. Interdisciplinarity must not be allowed to degenerate into superficiality: whether in education or in research, and whether in basic or in translational research, it is important to provide both interdisciplinary skills and resources, and qualifying expertise in each of the disciplines that are being crossed or integrated. This goal, I think, is a reasonable and attractive one for top universities including the top universities in Lithuania. And in a small country, having a population with enduring interdisciplinary education and true interdisciplinary expertise can only increase the national competitive advantage.
Let’s take a look to the future. How many universities you see in Lithuania in 10 or 20 years? How many of them could be among top 200-300 universities in the world?
Assuming a stable population, or even one that increases ahead of the European and North American trends, I would imagine the overall number of universities might well diminish, for the reasons outlined previously. On the other hand, I believe consolidation will allow for a redistribution of resources and a refocusing of the goals of these institutions.
While it is difficult to predict exactly how many could be in the top 200-300, on the basis of the quality, ambition and trajectory of existing Lithuanian institutions, it is plausible to project that this level could be attained by two or three. It is important to note that this number would exceed the statistical expectation of countries of the size of Lithuania at the present time.
There is every reason to believe Lithuania could have one or more universities in the top 100. Population size is not the dispositive determinant of quality.
Great perspective. How could this goal be achieved?
In my opinion this is an absolutely realistic goal. Criteria for achieving this level of distinction are widely disseminated. As already noted, they include teaching, research, research impact, business and economic impact, and international diversity.
The first step is to decide that is a goal the nation wants. Next is to focus efforts on the institutions that are already known for their teaching, research and publications, and to encourage and enable those efforts by the faculty to increase. It would be helpful to bring in both strategic advisors from successful universities abroad and advisors from industry for external perspectives. Some external academic advisors might be open to faculty positions at the top Lithuanian universities where they could also assist with the research agenda, PhD supervision, teaching and faculty mentoring. Indeed, international exchanges are critical.
Universities should also decide at what they want to excel. Not every university needs to excel in every subject area to stand out. Best is to develop a reputation and achieve real productivity and contribution in those areas where the institutions in question have the opportunity to achieve sustainable competitive advantages.
University leadership must lead this effort. Although the faculty and the students are the one doing the work, the vision and the positioning must come from the top. The faculty must be led to understand what they are working towards and why it matters. They must be encouraged, inspired and supported.
The matter of support is not trivial It will also be necessary to provide resources to the universities capable of this effort and committed to it. Research requires time and support. One cannot hold back on either. This component of the process requires a commitment from the government no less intense, no less persuasive, and no less enduring than that from the university. The efforts must converge and reciprocate.
Finally, this process will take patience. This is not only about impelling and celebrating work worthy of a Nobel Prize. It is about ambition, education, persistence, and devotion. While it may take time, however, the goal is worthwhile. There is every reason to expect that, with the proper leadership, support and inspiration, Lithuania will reach this level of achievement. It is simply not that far away.
